I had a recipe all ready to try out, with similar ingredients to Bioderma's Sensibio. It included distilled water, PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides (of course!), xylitol, cucumber peel extract, disodium EDTA, and a preservative. It was a simple one-phase mixing process, as there are no water and oil parts to emulsify.
As soon as I added the PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides to the water, it went kind of cloudy, which surprised me a bit, as the Bioderma formula is clear. I didn't worry about it, because the stuff I made with Cromollient SCE is also milky. I added in the rest of the ingredients. As expected, when I added the cucumber peel extract, the colour changed a bit. I'm using a powdered rather than a liquid extract and it makes things kind of yellow-y green. But it was fine and I mixered it all up.
I obviously can't leave well enough alone, so I tried it out right away. It felt okay, but not very much like the Sensibio. It was cleansing, but the dry-down wasn't the same; more residue-y, maybe from the cucumber extract or the gooey liquid Germall Plus I used to preserve it.
Anyway, within a few hours, I noticed something was settling out of solution onto the bottom of my beaker. I initially thought it was the Germall, since it looked pretty thick, but by the morning, the solution was clear with all the thick stuff sitting on the bottom, so now I figure it must be the PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides! What the heck! It's supposed to be a solubilizer, why is it coming out of solution?!
Clearly I need to have another go or two at this one. Sadly, it might not be for a while, since I have to help someone move this weekend and work out of town all next week. Boo. I guess I have time to contemplate what went wrong this time, since I still haven't figured that part out yet....
UPDATE Aug 28, 2016: So the strangest thing happened. I was more-or-less away for 10 days, so I just left this to sit. When I got home today, I mixed it up again with a frother-style mixer, and, lo! and behold, it is a clear solution! What the heck!? Did it just need some time, or did it just need some more serious mixing, or both? Anyway, I tried it again. It makes the same few tiny bubbles on the cotton pad as Sensibio (if you rub the two sides of the pad together), and it does not feel nearly as "residue-y" as I remember from before. Maybe the cucumber extract hadn't entirely dissolved before. Anyway, it is quite nice. Definitely an improvement on the last time I tried it. Perhaps a little more cleansing than Sensibio. Maybe they only use 0.75% surfactant in the commercial formula. Yay!
I'm so happy to have come across your blog! Currently, I am also making my own DIY version of micellar water. Doing a lot of research and reading about cleansing agent's/surfactants and such and now micellar water works. I used filtered water, peg-6 caprylic triglycerides, sodium lactate, willowbark extract (lotioncrafter didn't have cucumber and I know it's not comparable), disodium edta (although. Will use NeoGuard next time). My solution came out perfectly clear, but only after I mixed it up well enough just stirring with a sanitized to spoon. I tried adding allantoin but I added a little bit over 2% and it did not dissolve (won't dissolve at that percentage, must be less than 2%). So I had to scrap that batch! So far I really like it and I don't seem to find too much of a difference between mine and bio derma, however I would like to find some of the soothing and anti-inflammatory ingredients they use for my own micellar as I think that is why it is so gentle and does not irritate my eyes or around my mouth.
ReplyDeleteAshlynn
Hi! Wow, great to know someone is reading this stuff! :D I've remade this recipe recently without the cucumber peel extract, and I actually like it better without. I get my xylitol from a bulk food store, actually. It has some interesting skin benefits apparently (moisture, collagen, and hyaluronic acid booster) as well as providing contributing to the texture of the product. There are many other fructooligosaccharides on BioDerma's ingredient list, but they'd be really tricky to get a hold of in a pure form. My latest version also has a touch of each cetrimonium chloride (a conditioning agent) and propylene glycol (a humectant and texture enhancer).
DeleteI found your blog researching micellar waters, what they are and how to formulate one! Where did you find your cucumber extract? And why do you prefer it without? I am getting some xylitol today to add! I have a healthfood store that sells it. You're micellar sounds very nice with the addition of hyaluronic acid too! It didn't take long before I discovered that the fructooligosaccharides would be about impossible to get! Where did you find your cetrimonium chloride? My latest batch also has propyleneglycol in it as well! I base it in George's Aloe juice and rosewater/lavender water, however, I think that this could be a little bit wasteful since I do not leave the micellar water on my skin. I don't really feel too comfortable leaving the surfactants on my skin, even with bio derma. have you ever heard or read about neutralizing the surfactant?
DeleteAlso, what concentration of xylitol do you use? 1%, 2%?
DeleteMy recipe doesn't actually contain hyluronic acid... xylitol supposedly helps boost production of it in the skin though, along with collagen.
DeleteI think my cucumber peel extract is from Windy Point Soap. It's a powdered extract, so it makes everything kind of greenish-brown, which wouldn't be too bad if it didn't also have a tendency to separate out. :/ And my cetrimonium chloride is from Creations from Eden.
Regarding your question about "neutralizing" the surfactant, no, I have never heard of such a thing. Normally they are rinsed off and that is how they work. When it comes to micellar water, the idea is that you use an incredibly low concentration, sometimes less than 1%, and at that concentration it is safe to leave on the skin. Surfactants are essentially neutralized when they attach to dirt and oil. The end effect also depends on the surfactant you are using: some, like Cromollient SCE and PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides, are actually ingredients that are added to things to improve gentleness and add skin benefits, so leaving them on your skin isn't a bad thing. Polysorbate-20 is also usually used in leave-on products. Others, like decyl glucoside and caprylyl/capryl glucoside are a bit more like traditional, foaming surfactants. Those are the ones that weird me out in leave-on products. Plus I find them drying.
My latest recipe has xylitol at 0.5%.
I didn't love the micellar waters I made with rose water and orange blossom water, they were a bit too smelly when I just didn't always feel like smelling those scents. I really do prefer unscented facial products now that I've gotten used to using them. I trust you are using a good preservative in your recipe, as aloe juice can make things go bad pretty quick. :)
I had to go back and re-read that comment about the xylitol boosting HA in the skin, not that you add HA into the micellar, my misunderstanding reading your comments in such excitement!
DeleteCucumber extract seems to be difficult to come by as far as quality goes. I did just order some cucumber hydrosol to use, of course with a broad spectrum preservative used on the higher usage rate. Since I am USA, I shop with Lotion Crafter and Garden of Wisdom right now. I have had excellent experiences with each and love GOW in particular for their superb quality raw ingredients such as oils and hydrosols.I didn't realize that Lotion Crafter carries Cetrimonium Chloride, it is called Cetac 30% on their site; the names throw me off a bit! It would be nice to just call them by the INCI.
I heard about "ingredients to neutralize the surfactants" in some of my research about formulating a micellar water but no more specifics than that, so I am not bothering about it. Since my last comment I have learned more about micellar waters both from your blog and my research. What percent of Peg-6 do you use in your formula? I am using 1.5% in my current batch. I have Cromollient SCE in my oil cleanser which consists of Sunflower (high linoleic), alkyl benzoate, and Cromollient SCE. It is a duplication of Roccoco Botanicals Pore Cleansing oil I used to purchase (expensive!) and there is virtually no difference in texture or feel and use on the skin. It is very good at deeply cleansing the pores and pulling out clogs. Anyways, I really enjoy Cromollient SCE as a surfactant for my oil cleanse! I have not tried in water-based formulas though. Does it tend to be cloudy. I have never been comfortable with decyl glucoside and caprylyl/capryl glucoside solely because the "green beauty" cleansers I have tried with these are always far too harsh and drying, no matter the ingredients and formula differences. These surfactants are prevalent in that industry! You can guess why ;)
I added my xylitol at 0.5% and really like the slip and softness it added.
I have Disodium EDTA, which I know isn't a preservative, and NeoDefend. What do you think of using Neodefned as a broad spectrum? It does classify as a broad spectrum, but I am new to this one and preservatives in general as I am just starting out with water-based formulations. I decided to drop my aloe juice (thankfully I made a small batch) and just use distilled water. I came from green beauty where everything is so heavily fragranced with botanicals whether it be EO's, extracts, infusions, hydrosols, floral waters, ect. which sensitized my skin quite severely. All of my skincare now is fragrance free and I have been missing a little 'light' botanical aroma, but I can save that for my hydrating mist.
Have you ventured at all into hydrating mists? I have this going so far for ingredients:
-Distilled water
-cucumber hydrsol
-Allantoin
-Silk amino acids
-Sodium Lactate
-Panthenol
-Hydrolyzed Rice Protein (or) Aldenine PBC (lotion crafter)
-Neodefend or Liquid Germall Plus
Glad you are liking the xylitol. I'm not really sure that I could feel a difference using it, but I'm a sucker for attempting exact duplications (which you might have noticed reading this blog ;) ), but the benefits sound nice.
DeleteI've never used Neodefend; I've only ever used Liquid Germall Plus, powdered Germall Plus, Otiphen Plus, and the combo of potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate (these two are highly pH dependent!). I don't adore the consistency of Liquid Germall - soo thick, and Optiphen makes my skin burn in leave-on formulas, so powdered Germall Plus has kind of become my favourite preservative.
I've never tried to make a hydrating mist. My skin is hugely oily, so my hydration is limited to moisturizer at night and sunscreen during the day. Those ingredients sound okay for a watery spray on product though. :)
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ReplyDeleteSo today I just want to make another batch for a friend… I put my distilled water in my beaker, then I added the Peg-6 and it went cloudy! I put in at the same concentration, 1.5%. So I then made a second batch with my regular filtered water are used before and same thing happened. I made a note of each and set them both on the counter to see if they "Clear up" as you explained. The very first batch I made, the Peg-6 went in clear and mixed clear. What gives?! Both solutions contain only the water and surfactant. So I know it is nothing else causing the cloudiness.
ReplyDeleteI haven't entirely figured it out yet, but thorough, higher-shear mixing such as a milk frother or stick blender has worked for me to make it clear. Bearing in mind this doesn't seem to work when there are powdered extracts in the formula... they just coagulate everything and sink to the bottom. :S
DeleteHello! My experience is that with peg 6....transparency depends by preservative incompatibility and/or T°. Some become transparent when cooled in the fridge.
ReplyDeleteHi MM! Thanks for the comment; you point out some interesting things to consider!
DeleteI usually mix my surfactant in my distilled water at quite a high temperature, because I boil my distilled water before mixing. I haven't experimented much with different preservatives, though I have tried leaving it out for the initial mixing period to see if I could get the solution clear.
It seems with the recipe I use, as long as it is mixed at high shear - and doesn't contain too many powdered extracts - that it will form a clear solution. I've made it a bunch of times now, and most recently was successfully able to include a little of the powdered cucumber peel extract... at a rate much lower than I had tried to use initially.
very good article, I have a question about micellar water, I use PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides in my formula base on aqueous surfactant and finish product is clear, but after one week at the room temperature the colour became opaque, do you have suggest about my problem at that case ?, thank you very much.,
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